Episode #20
Najaf Gillani has over 20 years of experience running Global Software Engineering teams working for eCommerce giants like eBay, Walmart, & technology disruptors like Openwave systems.
He is now OpSec Security’s Chief Software Development Officer. OpSec Security, is a global leader in physical and digital anti-counterfeiting and brand protection solutions.
Along with Najaf’s strong professional experience, he has an entrepreneurial background and solid business acumen, which has enabled him to start and run a few businesses successfully.
He has also started several innovation labs during his career to incubate new ideas and built many proofs of concepts to disrupt different markets.
In this podcast we discuss the future of AI, and how best to blend tech by harnessing human curiosity and experience with the best innovative solutions and IoT available to stay one step ahead of fraudsters and counterfeiters.
SPEAKERS
Dom Burch and Najaf Gillani.
Dom Burch:
Welcome back to the ubloquity podcast with me Dom Burch. This is a podcast where we get to speak to thought leaders and experts from across the globe. And it’s lovely to actually be joined by somebody who is across the globe over there in San Francisco. Najaf Gillani, now Najaf, we worked together, I’m looking at your resume, right on LinkedIn. And you were at Walmart, like about10 years ago. So I’m figuring maybe we work together about eight or nine years ago.
Najaf Gillani:
Yeah, it’s been it’s been a while, but you know,but first of all, thank you for having me. On your podcast, I was, you know, I’ve been listening to all your podcasts,and it has been quite exciting to be on one. So thanks for having
Dom Burch:
well, you’re very kind, you’re very kind. It’s an absolute pleasure. So tell us a little bit about you tell us about your background, because you got you know, your OpSec now, but what was your journey into the role that you do now?What What have you been up to in your life?
Najaf Gillani:
Yeah, as you know, you know, I’ve been a techie have been a techie all my life, you know, started with pretty much pure software engineering, fields, you know,building email systems back back in the day in, in 90s, when, you know, emails were, you know,still becoming a big thing of collaboration and messaging. And then, you know, just worked my way through some of the, you know, groundbreaking technologies back, you know, in early 2000s, with mobile gateways and mobile phone browsers, which basically was also the thing of the future at that time. But, you know, that actually was quite insightful.So I would actually consider myself really lucky to be a part of that, in the beginning. And then, obviously, stumbled across the retail tech, which is, you know, join macys.com Back in2008, which is where my retail tech journey started and moved from the traditional software development companies into, into the retail technology companies.And I actually found out that there was a tremendous amount of opportunity in that space to uplevel technologies, and uplevel the systems because, you know, I mean, everyone was shifting towards online shopping. So that’s where my journey started with that. And then obviously, you know,switched over to Walmart, they discovered me, they wanted me to come in and, and build a global ecommerce platform. And I started with the Canada ecommerce platform first and then expanded my horizon to the global, you know, platforms,clothing, Asda, and you know,and then, you know, was a was a much bigger portfolio afterwards. And then it was fun.And I wanted to do something different. So anyway, after Walmart, I moved to eBay for a short, brief period of time, and then, you know, I came across this amazing opportunity, which was very different than what I had done in the past. So it was a learning opportunity. And now,at OpSec, you know, doing all the all sorts of different, you know, technologies, including online brand protection, and,and, you know, physical RAM production is so
Dom Burch:
great. And we’ll come to that in a minute. Let’s just reverse back to Walmart, right,because that period of Walmart’s evolution, they were going through this huge change, right,they kind of recognise they were a dinosaur based out of Northwest Arkansas, they were a traditional retailer, they grown out of being this one discount store. And it kind of become this huge, huge, like, the homebirth around the world,right and to the point where they were attracting lots of criticism, and they were having to go on this big sustainability drive, but also recognise that they needed to pick up their EECOM team, move them to San Francisco, and actually buy some technology companies and I guess really recruit a load of really smart engineering folks. And they really kind of, I don’t know, they sort of shed their skin a little bit, didn’t they,during that period, and they were quite radical and quite innovative
Najaf Gillani:
very much. So I think that it was a shift from the traditional brick and mortar model, because that’s where Walmart was focused, you know,when I joined back in 2010, you know, even getting a basic technology decision, you know,we had to get the get the approvals from senior leaders in Arkansas. And you know, they were mostly focused on the brick and mortar growth, and it was so hard to establish that, you know, technology would play a key role in this. So I think there was a lot of learnings there, there was a lot of pushback, but then you know,there was a lot of support and also came in from within. That just took us to the next next level of introducing latest technologies. And I think that shift took place between I would say 2010 and 2012 Which is where, you know, we experienced quite an explosion of technology usage and you know, technology thinking or design thinking. And then you know, they’re basically put Walmart on a path where it switched gears into becoming a more of a tech giant rather than a retail giant, or a combination of both.
Dom Burch:
And I guess it started to understand data didn’t it in a different way, it always been really, really good at understanding the sales and the product and the movement of product. But it started to really get a sense of when you’ve got 100 million customers choosing to shop with you once a month, and then a lot of those people are then starting to browse or shop online. It started becoming a data company,right. And it was sat on this amazing well of insight and information, but they’re making sense of all that information and translate it and do stuff with it. There’s the big challenge, right? It’s great having all the data, but actually been able to order it in such a way and then make some sense of it. That was the bit that I remember it sort of really beginning from San Francisco to kind of like go,Okay, this is really powerful stuff here. And there’s more value underneath the hood, if you like we realised, from just selling products, right? There’s this whole new business model that’s emerging,
Najaf Gillani:
correct. I think that the realisation that data is king was actually pretty much was a concept back then that some companies, including Walmart realised, and I think that that was because people have their trust on such a large retail, that, you know, they can save their information, they have the data that they need,you know, for the Walmart to make the right decisions. And I think we in that moment in time,the customer base, or the consumer base has always been very high on Walmart, which basically had the competitive edge, you know, that we had over other retailers that prices were low, we were able to draw traffic based on the competitive, you know, pricing that we had, people were able to create the profiles, you know,they were also looking at some of the trends, you know, that were happening in terms of products. So we started collecting a lot of data around personalizations, and liking and regional Data Slicing in terms of where, you know, what, which products are being sold, where,and I think that’s when the brick and mortar part of the business also realised that,hey, you know, this, this is great. I mean, we can also stock up a lot of different items based on the demand of the customer, rather than, you know,just saying, hey, you know, I’m low on, you know, XYZ product,and I’m just going to, you know,get 100,000 units, so that,rather than that, there was a lot of reliance on this data that would lead you to say,okay, yeah, you know, I haven’t sold this units so much in the past quarter. So, and, you know,I still have enough in my inventory. So instead of ordering another 100,000, I’m just going to order 25,000,because the volume and the need is not that much. So that also brought in fast optimizations across the board, which basically Walmart fundamental thing was, is to provide, you know, savings within to be able to pass that over to the consumer. So, so data played a huge role in this. And I think that the early adopters of of that data advantages was Walmart. And like I said, I was,I’ve been a big advocate of data till date, you know, that basically, it speaks to itself,it speaks to, you know, under the facts that we collected,
Dom Burch:
I remember some of the thinking as well about them were without the ability for real sort of AI driven machine learning, there was still this real focus on algorithmic understanding that you know,that you can build connections and those connections can be refined and those refinements can learn from one another, but also using different types of data and am I being an brilliant mean with the weather channel once and they were going if we map our historic weather data,by geographic zip code over your store sales data, and then we look at weather prediction,which is getting more and more accurate, and we can look 10days out seven days out, we could start to flow your goods perishable items that go up and the you know, the weather changes by three degrees,certain alcohol brands, which will change people flip from one brand, or one liquor into another that you might need more root vegetables on a cold windy day. And it was kind of like,for me that was just like expanding my brain. And it’s one of the reasons I still love coming over to you know, San Bruno and being in being in the sauce silicon vibe, right? Where there was this sort of notion compared to over in the UK,there was a notion of anything is possible. What’s your idea?Let’s go away and try and make it happen. Whereas I found over here, it was a bit more like before you got the ability or the I don’t know even given permission to do stuff, you have to kind of prove your credentials, you have to sort of go, the reason you should allow me to even think about this is because look what I’ve done in my past, whereas there was a complete different perspective,do you feel that and notice that being in that side of the world,
Najaf Gillani:
absolutely, I think that this side of the world has, I mean, again,Silicon Valley thinking is, is,has always been the cutting edge, you know, thinking outside the box and thought we have talent from within, but also have talent, you know, getting poured in from, you know, other parts of the world. So this is truly a melting melting pot. So the brain has different walks of life, you know, different mindsets, but, you know, I think I want to comment a little bit on the AI piece a little bit,you know, that you mentioned,that, even at that time, we were way ahead of, you know, the AI,you know, thinking because remember, for any AI system to work, there has to be some ground, some foundational pieces that you would have to put in place. And that basically is,you know, for whatever is being,you know, fed into your system has to operate in a certain way.So that, you know, you, you’re starting off with giving basic instructions to the machine, and then, you know, allowing the machine to learn from the bases that you’ve actually created,and then generating all these different, you know, models and learning models and things like that. So, people are the early adopters of that as well at Walmart, and even, you know, in Silicon Valley, a lot of different companies were adopting that. So that helped build the foundation for where we are today. I think that that had been revolutionising,because, you know, if I were to,you know, do the same thing over and over again, I would actually ask them, she’d say, hey, you know, just write the script for me, or, you know, write the script and just tell the machine to run an automated, you know,automatically, at a certain point of time. And then, by the way, if this happens, you know,I need some extra information as well, that was a foundation that started off with, you know, the expansion of the machine learning and AI. So, yeah, I a lot of different wives. And, you know, I think the revolution that we’ve gone through in the past couple of couple of years on this, two things, one,obviously, the Silicon Valley,standing out from the rest of the rest of the world, and then the second the is the foundational adoption of the, of the AI components from the very beginning.
Dom Burch:
So let’s fast forward then to OpSec security, right?So you’re the global leader in both physical and digital anti counterfeiting and brand protection solutions. Tell us a little bit about the company first, right. And then let’s get into some of the products and some of the, I guess, some of the things that you’re helping major corporations and governments soulful,
Najaf Gillani:
you know, our SEC has been around for 40 years, we were have been the pioneers of so many different things from starting with the physical technologies to be able to print, holograms, even these little labels and currencies to print, you know, currency for some of the government’s back then, and, you know, just the whole journey of working with,you know, governments brands, to be able to protect their physical assets, as well as the digital assets has been our core competencies. Now, you will hear in the market, a lot of people,a lot of companies would claim that, you know, they do have the same sophistication, and, you know, they can do online brand protection, or they can do physical brand protection. But you know, I tell you, Dom, it’s not that easy, you know, being being in technology,understanding, you know, what those complexities are, I can tell you this, that, you know,OpSec is definitely the industry leader in the space. And, you know, from the time that, you know, I have joined, you know,this company, the one focus that I’ve had is to turn this into a true technology, you know,company because, you know, you start off with products and machines and, you know, physical pieces, but then how do you transform this into a true tech company. So that journey has also been very interesting. And,you know, OpSec has been king with top brands, you know, top governments around the world,trying to solve these problems around counterfeiting around on the physical product side, but also on the digital side. And then we’re integrating now with,you know, a lot of different platforms across the board like Mara and you know, the marketplaces that are huge, like Amazon to the world and, and,you know, we’re just solving a very big problem, at least I think that we’re, you know,we’re helping the world become a better place. By doing that, so there’s also this, this, you know, satisfaction of doing the right thing, and then also being, you know, leader in this cutting edge technology that we have.
Dom Burch:
And this is the weird thing, right? So you and I sort of like go off and do our different things. And you know,and then suddenly, we’re sort of weirdly oscillating around one another in these two new companies. Right, so, so the thing that we’re getting more and more excited by more and more involved with both at a kind of critical national infrastructure level with governments, you know, creating these platforms that are blockchain based, right distributed, Ledger’s that are able then to take information but you know, use multi factor verification to ensure that the data is correct, right. So, you know, our kind of, I guess our purpose, if you like, is proving what something is, and where it has come from, how it was pulled together, made, manufactured,you know, whether it’s a natural product or an animal product or a manufactured product. And then once it’s on the move, ensure that it has integrity, right,that it’s not being tampered with. It’s not, you know, being broken or changed or adapted,right. And the reason we’re doing all of that is so that things can move more seamlessly and with without as much friction across borders. And it’s coming into sharp focus with some of the regulatory changes here in the UK and the UK, choosing to leave the European market has created friction, because it’s harder now to move things that were once moving across borders, that weren’t there, to now having borders that are there, right and different regulations. So it strikes me there’s loads, I mean, you know, OpSec is so huge and do so many different things.But you know, you’ll do shoot security tags when you at one level, which are these are windshield decals that are there embedded in the in the in the window of a car, but also allow governments to collect taxes.But I guess as these things develop, and as more and more products become, I guess, almost have like these IoT elements to them, yeah, have that mean that they are trackable, they do have a code that’s unique. They might give out a signal might be a nano tag or a GPS signal that increasingly, being able to federate and use feeds from these types of solutions that you guys create for companies and brands, will also mean that that will then allow systems and processes that are typically manual and quite bureaucratic to just operate far more seamlessly.
Najaf Gillani:
No, absolutely. I think that what we’ve done, and I think what a be, I think that you know, what, what you guys are tackling, it’s also very interesting, I would say it’s,it’s a channel that companies have not thought through in the beginning, remember, the Walmart days, like you don’t have issues around tracking of just a basic delivery of an item to a customer, right. So I think that no one knew where the item was,no one knew where, you know, the journey of that product had been. And now, I think more so than ever, you know, we’re all interested in making sure that it’s a seamless handshake between different systems. And I think data security, which is becoming more and more of a concern, that, you know, as you’re battling this, there’s also bad actors in the market that are also trying to combat this, you know, the other way by, you know, coming up with some, you know, more evil plans,I guess, and then they, you know, so data security plays an integral part in this. So again,the use of, you know, new technologies like blockchains,and are becoming more and more in demand, because I think that’s, that’s the future for us to make sure that we have the secure, Ledger’s, you know, to be able to protect the data from, you know, getting misuse.Right. So, I think that’s where I see the future going towards,you know, and in OpSec, I think we, you know, what we what we have done is, we have, you know,found a really niche area where we have not only created these,you know, unique IDs that, you know, goes along with, with different labels that we print,and, you know, all the different security features that we provide. We also have a tracking mechanism, you know, like you said, it’s, you know, in law enforcement agencies are able to see, you know, where different products and actually made it do, we have a mobile app that actually allows you to scan or look at from hand tags to be able to find out if you know if it’s real or not, you know, or if it’s counterfeit, so there’s a lot more effort that has been put into making sure the dog journey is captured, which is, I think, which you know, you guys are doing that in tackling that on the supply chain side. That’s right.
Dom Burch:
And all we’re ever looking for is like good quality data that is once it’s free.Made immutable by placing it into this distributed ledger on the blockchain ecosystem. If the data was such good quality, that it’s true, right, and you can stand by it and go, right, that digital fingerprint, that twin now of the physical item has a digital associated with it. And I can trust that all the way through a system. So the number of checks that you then have to do on that, throughout its journey decreases the number of interventions, you have to make the number of times that port authorities have to pull that waggon over or that truck aside and go, we need to check what’s on the back. And then sort of combining technologies is the thing we’re interested in is like, how do you combine the best science that’s out there with the best IoT devices with the best tags, right, and I’m,and I’m just looking at this, I suppose the opportunity in front of you as an organisation. So faster, I’m gonna just take pharmaceutical, I’m just looking at your website here, right?According to the Food and Drug Administration, 97% of online pharmacies are selling fake medicines. Yes. Wow. You know,and just, it’s just unbelievable, isn’t it? And as you say, counterfeiters are always going to be just one step behind your best technology,ideally, but they’re sort of creating these holographic things themselves. So so how do you do that as an organisation?I mean, without obviously giving away anything to the counterfeiters, but like, how do you ensure that you’re always just that one step ahead, and that you’re developing technologies that mean that you can keep on delivering for your customers?
Najaf Gillani:
That’s a great question. In fact, we do have a lot of simulation in terms of what the counterfeiters are actually, up to right. So, you know, the things that are attributes are specialist investigators, you know, they take a look at, you know, what could be another possibility that kind of Pharaoh could actually be thinking, so, you know, just just staying ahead in the game. So I’ll tell you, I think that you mentioned a very important piece of the puzzle,which is basically pharmaceutical, right, so lifesaving, because this is, you know, more around, you know,impacting, you know, people like, you know, counterfeit medicines being sold in different parts of the world,you know, could impact you know,someone’s health or, you know,possibly take their life, right.So you just have to understand that, you know, there is a bigger problem that we’re facing. But first, let me explain, I think we do a lot of investigative things, we actually do a lot of, you know,research in terms of what could be the possible where counterfeiters can take advantage of and then we we then have wired and built technologies that allows us to be so unique that no one can have multiple different layers of these inks that we’re using and different holograms that we’re building multi layered aspects of it different facets involved in this, that you know,that that can’t be easily counterfeited. I mean, people some some factory, you know,someone thinks that, hey, you know, I can just print money or I can print, you know, this level, it is not going to be that easy. So we’re, we’re not only combating what they’re taking, they’re gonna do but we’re also thinking about1015 50 years from now, like,you know, these guys will be left behind in the game. But the important thing is that the retailers, the brands, the pharma industries, you automate Another example is the automotive right so the automotive industry, the brake pads, brake pads are actually counterfeit, and they are so dangerous because, you know,you’ll hear accidents around you know, people were applying brakes and you know, the brakes failed and, and they don’t know that brake pads are the real or not, they’re being sold at a retail store, but there’s no way for them to find out so there’s a lot of measures that can be taken if you know we start to build this awareness and and and expand our product lines to other you know, other areas,other industries and other brands but it’s a it’s a hell of a journey. Let me tell you that I think it’s it’s a challenge every day is that you know, it’s very exciting. But you know,you’re doing the right thing I think we’re more making making the world a better place.
Dom Burch:
And what is it what what gets you out of bed in the morning right? So you know, your chief Software Development Officer right and you’re in you’ve got this vast universe of things going on in front of you which is all you know, every every single channel looks exciting. We haven’t even got into the kind of digital counterfeit world of a guest spotting things on a big retailer of products which will have a marketplace open marketplace and now they’ll have you know, small holders selling things and I guess you’re spotting things up on there. Are you guys looking at descriptions looking at does that luxury handbag? Is it too cheap? Is that a flag? Is that a flag that raises an alarm? What what kind of things are you doing there where you’re not? It’s not physically it’s digital.
Najaf Gillani:
Yeah, the digital side is is, you know, a lot more technology. And, you know, I would say no, I mean, both sides are very technology driven, but digital side has this bit of a machine learning, you know, AI element to it as well, because,you know, we do, we’ve been doing it for a long time, we understand that there’s certain anomalies, that counterfeiters,like you know, that like to see in these, you know, movies that,you know, this, the suspect had left some evidence behind,right, so there’s always just one evidence that’s left behind that evidence is, is, you know,captured in our analysis,basically, you know, some descriptions give it away,sometimes the price gives it away, sometimes the location gives it away, sometimes the,you know, the swatches and the colours, give it away.Thumbnails and the stock images give it away. So there’s,there’s always this one thing that these counterfeiters miss out on and you know, the leave a little breadcrumb for us to find out that, oh, God, gee, man,this is something that you’re trying to do, but we’re not going to, you know, let you get away with it. And we’ve also built, you know, a lot of reputation with large appliance or across the world. And they trust us with their brands now,because they are willing to share, you know, some of the very, you know, specific information like, you know,serial numbers or things that they can share with us that we can cross validate. So now we’re actually building the next level of partnerships with some of these brands. And also, on the other hand marketplaces, this problem is, is very widespread,because, you know, they’re little to no checks when someone is onboarded, as a seller on a marketplace, because obviously,marketplaces are going after volumes, and they want more sellers to be on the platform.But at the same time, these low checks then leads to problems where, you know, you have a very high counterfeiting rate. But again, everyone now is realising that this is a major problem.And one example that I give to everyone is that major brand bag being sold to a human eye to consumers that are not aware of the brands and as such, like my mom would sometimes, you know,buy something donated to me,it’s like, hey, look, what I got. And, you know, I spent, you know, a couple of $100 on it,and I’m, you know, looking at it, and I don’t want to break her heart, but it was counterfeit at times, you know,and, and she doesn’t know, but you know, she’s holding it and believing it’s real, but you know, there are things that you can then then give it away. So anyways, the digital side is becoming much more complex,because our footprint on the on the websites, and the marketplaces is a lot more. So we use a lot of checks and balances a lot of AI and machine learning just to be able to tackle that.
Dom Burch:
And I guess you can imagine this world of sort of NF T’s and been able to authenticate that something is real, and then associate that with a digital item that’s for sale. And for that authenticity,to carry some weight, and then on arrival, that you then have something that has value and a resale value, right, because,you know, I’ve got this designer bag, it should cost $3,000, it should be made to a very high standard, and there are not many of them in the world. So that gives it even more value if you like. And those sorts of items can gain value currently, as they sort of age or become, you know, even more rare. And having this sort of notion that in the future that can be authenticated, there might be a tag inside the bag that’s invisible or hidden, that can be validated at a certain point.But also that it comes with a unique code, right comes with a unique, there is only one of them in the world. And that can be stored somewhere. And that can be transferred, I mean that that world isn’t far away. I mean, the technologies are there, right? But it’s not it’s not out there in you know, wide use, but I guess all those things are beginning to converge,
Najaf Gillani:
it will be an explosion of all of these different, you know, digital asset protections, you know,which includes, you know, NF T’s and, and some of the other mechanisms, you know, where we would protect those. But, yeah,I think that technology is changing by the hour by the minute, so she can never know,tomorrow, everyone starts, you know, moving towards the interaction. But the thing is,we we are OpSec I think are staying ahead of the curve by making sure like I said, the research, you know, some of our experts, you know, in the business have actually gained over, you know, 2030 years and is that there’s a there’s a trend that you go after there’s you know, these counterfeiters and bad actors are using certain mechanism and their thought process and You know, and that thought process is something that we’re trying to get our head off and combat. So digital assets is not that far off,where they’re getting protected as well, which we’re actually working with some of the clients on that as well, at this point,
Dom Burch:
and I love that because right, you know, this is for me, the the crux of it, all right, you’ve got this amazing technology, but these amazing advances in technology, we haven’t even really got into,like, the whole chat GPT world of things, right. But, but ultimately, you also have humans who have vast amounts of experience and intuition, based on having been there, done that.And so blending the best that technology can give you, but also applying that human brain that allows you to go, I can sense where this is going. And therefore we need to start investing and getting after that. I mean, you know, that’s got to be still the bit that gets us all out of bed, right?You still need the humans,
Najaf Gillani:
I think the human element, you know, just keep in mind. And this is, again, my perspective, you know, being a techie all my life, love machines, love, you know,breathing automations love creating systems, but at the same time, I think the human mind, you know, has just this extraordinary capability of, you know, if utilised in the right way can actually really do amazing things. So you do need that element of the human and machine together, because, you know, you’d have to almost have this friendship, you know,between the two, because, you know, this is these learning models, while they are amazing.They if they have this extra support of experience,expertise, and the human, you know, experiences real life,then, you know, you can just be untouchable, right? I mean, you can actually reach levels that no one can. So I do think that that’s an important component that we have, and our specialists, we’re truly proud of that, you know, the, with the technologies and the specialists that we have, it’s a combination that takes us to the next level.
Dom Burch:
And I think that’s the thing to me, you can’t teach a machine to be curious, right?But you can, but you really can encourage a human to be curious,and they sort of like that skill that can be lost. We know when every when every answer to every question is on the internet. But being curious and wanting to find out more and sniff something around the corner. But anyway, listen, now, if we could chat right all day long, but we can all I’ll tell you why we can’t because it’s the weekend here in the UK, because I’m like10 hours or nine hours in front of you. And you know, I know there’s a beer waiting for me,so I’m gonna have to go and drink. But it’s been a real pleasure catching up with you on the podcast. I hope to see you in the real world soon, either over here in Europe, or me over there in the US. But for the time being now, Jeff Jelani CTO,Chief Software Development Officer OpSec. If anyone’s interested in finding more about OpSec, then well, you can just Google OpSec securities,everything will come up and you can find Now Jeff on LinkedIn and plenty of other places. But now Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it.
Najaf Gillani:
Thank you, Dom.It was great chatting with you speak soon.
Dom Burch:
Wonderful. Now is there anything I didn’t ask you that you want to say?
